1965 404 Sedan from Russia

[Mike T]

About the French engineering ideas: they may seem strange at first, but remember that this is one of the world's great cars, 4 time winner of the East African Safari, often driven close to a million km.  So they did know what they were doing!

The rear axle needs a vegetable-based oil.  Be careful about that!

[Lexx]

it needs a Peugeot grille instead of that Volga one!

It came a couple of weeks ago



And the old one is removed.

The rear axle needs a vegetable-based oil.  Be careful about that!

Hmmm, the manual says "SAE 90 EP or multi-purpose hypoid". Did you mean "mineral, not synthetic"?

[DOCTEUR404]

Hi lexx, welcome to the club

Sorry to say that but looking to your pictures, the car needs some work. I don't know what are the possibilities and cost to bring car parts from France to Russia but it could be more cost effective to buy a good running 404 and drive it to Russia.
Looking at your pictures the engine needs a complete rebuilt : pistons, sleeves, bearings, regrinding, valves etc.These parts are available in France. I think also the rest of the car ( brake and suspension mainly) will need some attention.
What about the body it self ? Are there rust holes or even worst ?
The oil in the gear box should be motor oil but in rear axle it is castor oil. If you can't find it, it is possible to use SAE 90 EP oil but you need to rince very carrefully the axle before because castor oil cannot be mixt with other oils

[Lexx]

Effectiveness is surely not the reason to buy an old car

It is quite difficult to get the car to Russia now. If you want to drive it on common roads, you'd have to pay about 8000 euro tax for a car with 1600 ccm engine. That's the reason why many people in Russia have to repair rare cars, that are already registered here, instead of buying them abroad. It is simply cheaper.

Heavy and big parts, that are expensive to send, seem to be fine. So now I don't think I need to get the whole car to disassemle it for spare parts. Furthermore, as soon as my car has its original engine, I'll try my best to keep it under the hood. I also hope that some parts can suit from other cars, I'm going to perform some investigation . What I know exactly is that I need original sleeves and pistons, the rest parts I'll try to find here.

The body itself has some rust holes, but they don't seem to be too complicated to repair.

The first thing to do now is to make the car move by itself. I need it to complete the registration. The body work will come later.

Can you give me an example if the "right" oil to buy for rear axle? I'll try to find it here.

[Mike T]

Castrol R40 is available from Castrol Classic Oils in western Europe and Canada - that one would be perfect for the rear axle.  Veedol and some other brands make some Castor-bean based oils too.

[Lexx]

Yesterday the engine was removed without any problem.



After some washing I decided to remove the crankshaft to examine it more careful.



Unfortunately, the remains of bearings of the first connecting rod were finally found in the pan among other mud. So I decided to perform the measurements. The engine seems to be never repaired.

All the main journals, the 2nd, 3rd and 4th connecting rod journals are ok. The wear is not more than 0.2mm. But the 1st connecting rod journal is worn for 0.9 mm in one axle and 0.5mm in another. The 1st connecting rod itself is worn for about 0.6 mm. The rest are ok.



So I need to know the approximate price of the 5-journal crankshaft, one connecting rod, the set of cylinder sleeves, pistons and rings and the set of bearings in France, so that I can decide whether to order them in France or to repair my parts here.

Mike T, In our shops Castrol R40 is being sold as the motor oil, not transmission one... Or am I mistaken?

[Mike T]

Castrol R40 is indeed an engine oil but it also is perfect for the 404 rear axle!  Before using it, try to determine which oil was used in there previously and if you think it was a mineral oil, it would be best to take the axle apart and clean all traces of the old oil out.  At that age, it is probably best to tear down the drivetrain anyway, to check the condition of all the bearings.

It is a pity that the crankshaft is destroyed, but it should not be too difficult to find another one in France that can be reground to an appropriate undersize.

[Lexx]

Do XC6 and XC7 pistons and liners fit my XC5 engine? They seem identical on the photos.

And who could help finding the crankshaft or where can I look it for? And one connecting rod too. 

[Mike T]

You should buy 4 connecting rods, because they are all weight- matched at the factory into one of six weight categories.  If you only buy one, the chances of it being in the same weight class as the other three is only 16.6% and there could be a fairly bad imbalance in the engine if it is not matched.

XC6 pistons and liners will work in an XC5 block but the compression ratio is higher - that is probably a good thing.  However the valve heads in the XC6 are also larger so the engine would not breathe as well as a full XC6 would.

You could search on Leboncoin.fr for un vilebrequin 5 paliers but as most of them will be used, it is important to get detailed journal measurements from the seller.  Con rods are bielles.

[Lexx]

Thank you very much for your response! Will be watching that site. I hope to get to the workshop on friday and show them the crankshaft with the con rods and see what they can do about it.

[Lexx]

The crankshaft and conrod were taken to the workshop. Everything should be ready for 11th of March when I come back from retro car show that takes place Moscow on March 7-10th, where I hope to get encouraged for further struggle Now I'm going to order both sets of 0.5mm bearings and minor missing parts.

[Mike T]

Do you mean that the machine shop can turn the damaged journal down to 0.5 mm undersized and it will be OK?  If so, that is good news.  And they are going to repair the rod as well?

Both the rods and crankshaft are forged steel!

[Lexx]

That's surely not so easy... I don't know the correct translation, but it is something like "plasma spraying". That's the way little pieces of metal are sprayed with high speed into damaged crankshaft with the help of a gas. After the diameter of the journal is restored, it can be machined to necessary dimensions. It looks like this:

The bottom of conection rod is cut down for about 0.5-0.8mm (because all the damage is in vertical axle). Than the cap is placed back, and together they are machined to restore the cylindrical shape. Surely the rod becomes a bit shorter, but that's the easiest way out. I'm not going to go racing with the repaired crankshaft and rod If some time I get undamaged ones, I can easily replace them.

The next week I'm going to order lines and pistons. I don't know whether the piston pin would be 22 or 23 mm. The ones from my engine are 22mm. When everything arrives, and if it is 23 mm, we can drill small end of repaired piston a bit higher to make distance between ends closer to what it should be. These are my ideas.

[vd71272]

That's surely not so easy... I don't know the correct translation, but it is something like "plasma spraying". That's the way little pieces of metal are sprayed with high speed into damaged crankshaft with the help of a gas. After the diameter of the journal is restored, it can be machined to necessary dimensions. It looks like this:

Amazing technique! First time I see that! 

[Lexx]

It is usually applied only to expensive and firm crankshafts of big truck engines, because for a price I pay for this work (about 200 Euro) I can buy 2 or 3 new crankshafts for a common 1.6l russian car And surely I get no guarantee for this work.